The Boeing Banana |
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3061 |
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Posted: 25 Feb 2018 at 11:03pm |
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For anyone still wondering what this is all about, read on.
This is one of the coolest new features in the 10.2.1 update. Here is a screen grab from the 10.2.1 updated simulator. Down thread I posted some RW shots. The Boeing Banana (Avidyne Plantain) is noted with the red arrow. Here the next controlling altitude restriction is level at 7000ft at NUBER. The green arc shows where the aircraft will cross that altitude, in the climb, given its current climb rate. The aircraft is on an intercept heading for the magenta line outlined course, as such the green arc is displaced in the direction of travel of the aircraft. The required VS (VSR) can also be displayed, and here it is shown in a datablock just below the COM frequencies and signified Nav Mode. Works the same way in the descent. Wonderful to confirm that you will make any ATC instructed, or approach required altitude constraints. The IFDs load all the approach minimums automatically, when you load an approach. Here the next controlling altitude constraint is 3000ft at URMER, inserted from the procedure. We are headed to IPVOB (IAF). You can see that listed on the right in the flight strip. The altitude constraint at URMER is not drawn on the map view, as it is decluttered with the current map range. Finally, having turned final on the LPV approach, but before the FAF. The FAF at OTVUG is shown with an auto-filled not-below 2400ft constraint, and a calculated VSR of -507 fpm given our current position & altitude. At that descent rate, the banana is nicely on the FAF, so we should reach it at the correct altitude. ADSAN is a step down fix, which doesn't apply for the LPV. Also makes it very easy to fly a continuous approach profile (CDAP) for a non-precision approach, you just put the banana on the airport, and fly it in down to minimums. Very nice stuff! I'll be updating the firmware this week, so will get some real in-air pics posted shortly. * Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 03 Mar 2018 at 10:42pm |
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3061 |
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Well, I've been up in the air with 10.2.1 and the Banana, and I LOVE IT. No surprise.
Here are some pics. It was just a quick run around the local patch. Set 7500 as a restriction on JARVS. In the air, and in the climb. Calculated VSR of +350 fpm or so, I'll be at 7500 ft before JARVS as the banana shows. Loaded the approach up, all the altitude constraints populated. I prefer 3000ft at OVUTU, so changed it. And, down we go, adjusting the descent rate, keeping the banana nicely tracking to the IF, at OVUTU. Didn't get any shots on the approach, it was too bumpy. * Orest Father of Avidyne's Boeing Banana Edited by oskrypuch - 01 Mar 2018 at 4:26pm |
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Cruiser
Senior Member Joined: 24 Feb 2017 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 139 |
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"Also makes it very easy to fly a continuous approach profile (CDAP) for a non-precision approach, you just put the banana on the airport, and fly it in." How do you set the data for the green arc "banana" |
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3061 |
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You don't separately set the data for the banana, that is part of the elegance. The banana provides vertical guidance to the next commanding altitude constraint that you have set, or one that has been auto-loaded from an approach. But, for the purposes of flying a CDAP (CANPA), all it needs is the airport elevation (plus a bit for safety) as an altitude constraint, and you fly a constant descent by commanding the descent rate that keeps the banana on the field. * Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 28 Mar 2018 at 1:56pm |
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BobsV35B
Senior Member Joined: 24 Aug 2011 Location: Downers Grove, Status: Offline Points: 131 |
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What determines the angle flown!
If you are executing a non precision approach to a minima of 400 and 1, yet flying an angle of three degrees, you will reach the MDA before you can see the runway. Ease of operation is one thing, but it is nice to make something that works LEGALLY. <G> Happy Skies, Old Bob
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Old Bob, Ancient Aviator
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brou0040
Senior Member Joined: 13 Dec 2012 Location: KIYK Status: Offline Points: 720 |
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Please explain what part of the banana is ILLEGAL. What do you typically do when you reach the MDA before you see the runway if you don't have a banana?
Edited by brou0040 - 01 Mar 2018 at 11:09pm |
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3061 |
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Old Bob, It that instance, you just pick a target altitude of 400 ft AGL, and fly to that, then level if need be. Of course you could fly an incorrect profile, but you won't if you pick the numbers correctly. This type of profile has been standard procedure in Part 121 flying NPA for some years. The banana just makes it easier, and it provides instant feedback to close the error loop. * Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 01 Mar 2018 at 11:17pm |
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CardinalRG
Newbie Joined: 02 Aug 2015 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 12 |
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Thanks for the Banana, "Dad". And off course...... thanks Avidyne. NICE feature.
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BobsV35B
Senior Member Joined: 24 Aug 2011 Location: Downers Grove, Status: Offline Points: 131 |
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Good Mprning Bro, I prefer to fly an NPA the way it was deigned to be flown. Descend to the MDA and fly level to the MAP. If the runway is not sighted in time to make comfortable descent, take a miss. Worked for me in evething I flew from the DC-3 to the classic 747. (4.2 degrees works well for most NPAs.)
Happy Skies, Old Bob
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Old Bob, Ancient Aviator
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3061 |
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Well dive & drive vs "new think" CDAP is always a lively discussion, but this isn't really the place for it. * Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 02 Mar 2018 at 10:43am |
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Catani
Senior Member Joined: 21 Jan 2016 Status: Offline Points: 362 |
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brou0040
Senior Member Joined: 13 Dec 2012 Location: KIYK Status: Offline Points: 720 |
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Got it, but the banana doesn't do anything to violate that, much less anything illegal. The banana is not for primary vertical guidance, it's a useful reference, just like the vertical speed required datablock. How you use that useful reference as you make your descent is up to you.
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nrproces
Senior Member Joined: 19 Sep 2016 Location: Marion, MT Status: Offline Points: 142 |
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"CDFA" approaches started at Brand X in the late 80's, and they have been the approved solution for 20 years or so, I guess that you didn't do them in the 200, but we did them in the 3 holer. Give them a shot it is very easy concept.
note: we called them "CARD" (constant angle rated descent) (here is a link to a discussion about them, they are different then the Dive n Drive we old guys learned) http://www.ifr-magazine.com/issues/1_4/features/Constant-Angle-Descent_32-1.html |
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Sauce
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BobsV35B
Senior Member Joined: 24 Aug 2011 Location: Downers Grove, Status: Offline Points: 131 |
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Hi Sauce,
Orest will (properly) bawl me out for continuing this thread, but the data you present is very good and does spell out methods to assure that a modified CANPA approach does have adequate terrain clearance. Merely flying Canpa without considering the possibility of busting an MDA is the right thing to do. My gripe is that folks will try to adapt the approach without the due diligence your company has used. It ain't as simple as just flying a constant angle!
Happy Skies, Old Bob |
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Old Bob, Ancient Aviator
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BobsV35B
Senior Member Joined: 24 Aug 2011 Location: Downers Grove, Status: Offline Points: 131 |
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DARN! I meant to say "is NOT the right thing to do". Orest is right. I should slink back into my hole!!
Sorry Old, OLD Bob
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Old Bob, Ancient Aviator
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3061 |
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Bob, don't slink anywhere.
Dive and drive is a long practiced (successful) method of flying a NPA. But, flying a constant angle stabilized approach has operational benefits in many, if not most instances. Regardless, no matter the method of execution, respecting the minimums is integral to any proper approach technique. I don't think anyone would counsel otherwise. In any case, getting back to the topic of the thread, the banana could equally well assist in both styles of approach execution. * Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 03 Mar 2018 at 10:45pm |
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nrproces
Senior Member Joined: 19 Sep 2016 Location: Marion, MT Status: Offline Points: 142 |
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Bob my guess from your place of abode is the you flew for that other Whale carrier across the Pacific, I flew for the one that got merged by the Georgia Mafia. LOL The generic was a great ol bird, but like everything else in life, stuff changes...
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Sauce
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mgrimes
Newbie Joined: 22 Sep 2015 Location: Lakeland FL Status: Offline Points: 26 |
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I had my first chance to review this new feature in real world conditions recently and I really like it. It was worth the upgrade just for this one item. Thanks for pushing this.
Mike
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rsharp
Newbie Joined: 11 Jan 2018 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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I like the way you setup the IFD datablocks on the left side.
I assume you receive the OAT with an Air Data Computer connection? Thanks for the insights! Randy
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Regards,
RLSharp |
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3061 |
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Entirely concur. This is one of the best, and unique, new features, in a long time. I love it! * Orest |
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Gring
Senior Member Joined: 30 Dec 2011 Location: Kingston, NY Status: Offline Points: 737 |
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I think the banana needs to be more than one pixel wide. I think it gets lost on the screen sometimes, especially in installations like a Bonanza where the IFDs are off to the right.
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teeth6
Senior Member Joined: 10 Mar 2014 Status: Offline Points: 741 |
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What a wonderful addition. I've flown with the banana several times now and love it. Thanks for being persistent, Orest. I do agree with Gring, that it should be a little bolder. It is a bit hard to pick out at times.
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3061 |
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Well, you're welcome.
I'm tickled pink with it, or rather green I guess! * Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 26 Mar 2018 at 8:02pm |
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3061 |
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Yes, the OAT comes from my JPI 830. * Orest |
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Kentucky Captain
Senior Member Joined: 21 Mar 2015 Location: KBRY Status: Offline Points: 234 |
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I'll be getting the 10.2.1 update next week. The question I have now is, and I'm guessing not but will the banana show up on my Aspen too? That would be most helpful since I really don't look at the IFD too much once I have the programing done. The Aspen has most of the information that I need for navigation and approaches. |
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Woo Hoo!!!
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3061 |
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Sadly no, that would be up to ASPEN.
* Orest |
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LarryPetro
Groupie Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Location: Washington, DC Status: Offline Points: 66 |
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Tuesday, I'm also having my IFD440s updated to 10.2.1. Will the banana display on my Avidyne EX5000 MFD?
Edited by LarryPetro - 07 Apr 2018 at 3:45pm |
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Larry Petro - Columbia 350 @ KFME
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LANCE
Senior Member Joined: 06 Dec 2014 Location: TEXAS Status: Offline Points: 277 |
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No, but you could put a Chiquita Banana sticker on your EX5000.
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LarryPetro
Groupie Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Location: Washington, DC Status: Offline Points: 66 |
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Half of your answer is what I was expecting, although I hoped for better. I'm headed to the grocery now to get the sticker.
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Larry Petro - Columbia 350 @ KFME
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KIM
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Klaus
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AviSteve
Admin Group Joined: 12 Feb 2018 Location: Melbourne, FL Status: Offline Points: 2244 |
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As suggested, I have modified the banana to be a thicker line. Will be included in 10.3.
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Steve Lindsley
Avidyne Engineering |
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paulr
Senior Member Joined: 24 Jan 2014 Status: Offline Points: 558 |
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THANKS, Steve!
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Gring
Senior Member Joined: 30 Dec 2011 Location: Kingston, NY Status: Offline Points: 737 |
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Thanks much
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Msieger
Newbie Joined: 28 May 2017 Location: KCPS Status: Offline Points: 18 |
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I like the thicker banana. Can we make the TOD circle a tad bit bigger also????????
Mike
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Mike
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AviSteve
Admin Group Joined: 12 Feb 2018 Location: Melbourne, FL Status: Offline Points: 2244 |
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If you give a mouse a cookie ... :)
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Steve Lindsley
Avidyne Engineering |
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oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3061 |
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An EVEN BETTER Banana!
* Orest |
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teeth6
Senior Member Joined: 10 Mar 2014 Status: Offline Points: 741 |
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Awesome. Thanks for being so responsive to suggestions.
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teeth6
Senior Member Joined: 10 Mar 2014 Status: Offline Points: 741 |
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Is there a plan to include the Boeing Banana in a future IFD 100 update?
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dmtidler
Senior Member Joined: 12 Feb 2016 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 617 |
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I have the latest version of the IFD100 app and it shows the "Banana" just fine when WiFi connected to my IFD540 running sw 10.2.1.0.
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GBSoren71965
Groupie Joined: 25 Feb 2018 Location: MN Status: Offline Points: 52 |
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Same for me, IFD100 and IFD440 both show it. I use it far more on the IFD100.
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LANCE
Senior Member Joined: 06 Dec 2014 Location: TEXAS Status: Offline Points: 277 |
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No plan just a plantain.
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teeth6
Senior Member Joined: 10 Mar 2014 Status: Offline Points: 741 |
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No plan just a plantain.[/QUOTE] I like that!!! Very cute :). I"ll have to check again on my next flight. I looked for the banana on the IFD 100 and didn't see it last flight when it did appear on my 540
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teeth6
Senior Member Joined: 10 Mar 2014 Status: Offline Points: 741 |
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So I flew today and did not see the banana on the IFD 100 when it did appear on my 540. I have the latest version of the IFD 100 and it says compatible with 10.2.1. What could I be missing?
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Arrow
Newbie Joined: 25 Mar 2017 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 5 |
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I also did not see it on my IFD100 with IFD440
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