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Another Jepp Question |
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ddgates 
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 Topic: Another Jepp QuestionPosted: 28 Feb 2018 at 9:38am |
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Principally directed towards Avidyne staff:
For those of us who have dual IFDs in whatever combination, is it necessary to have two Jepp nav data and chart subscriptions? I've received different inputs about this from Avi and Jepp, indeed differences between Jepp customer service people. I do know from experience that a single stick will update both IFDs. What is the official Avi guidance on this please? Thanks. Edited by ddgates - 28 Feb 2018 at 9:39am |
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David Gates
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dmtidler
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Posted: 28 Feb 2018 at 11:05am |
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FWIW - When I talked with Jeppesen and set up my data service two years ago; Jeppesen indicated that the service was on a per tail basis. They explained that if I added a second IFD to the same airplane (which I have not done), my subscription would allow the updating of both IFDs for the same fee.
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AviSteve
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Posted: 28 Feb 2018 at 11:17am |
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Correct, one subscription per tail number covers both IFDs in the cockpit. If you want IFD100 support, you'll need the "Jeppesen Services Suite + IFR" bundle.
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Steve Lindsley
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luchetto
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Posted: 28 Feb 2018 at 12:46pm |
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So Steve, you're saying that one stick would be sufficient for both the 540 and the 440? I understood that once you have uploaded one stick you cannot reuse it again.
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chflyer
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Posted: 28 Feb 2018 at 1:03pm |
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One stick has never worked for me, and checking it after an update shows that the data has changed.
What does work is copying / backing up the usb stick to pc before use and then restoring the backup to a 2nd stick for the 2nd IFD. That also allows updating 2 IFDs in parallel, although I must say that since 10.2 the update time is dramatically reduced.
Edited by chflyer - 28 Feb 2018 at 1:04pm |
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Vince
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AviSteve
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Posted: 28 Feb 2018 at 3:29pm |
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No, I'm not saying that. I just said that you only need one subscription with Jeppesen. If you have two IFDs, each cycle I would expect JDM to show that you have two downloads available. You would download from JDM once for each IFD onto a separate USB stick. Then, go to the aircraft with the two USB sticks and load the IFDs.
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Steve Lindsley
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ddgates
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Posted: 28 Feb 2018 at 3:51pm |
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Jeppesen doesn't know that apparently
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David Gates
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chflyer
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Posted: 28 Feb 2018 at 4:08pm |
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Sorry Steve, but I think you need to check your facts on that. Not sure how Jepp would know. AFAIK, the IFDs are not registered with Jepp, just the a/c reg. Perhaps true if one orders the "Jeppesen Services Suite + IFR" bundle in which case Jepp might just add the 2nd download on request since all in-panel units + IFD100 + IFD Trainer are all covered in the bundle. But that costs a small fortune. In any case, I have an IFD540 & IFD440 and a single navdata subscription with Jepp. There is only one download available per update on JDM. When I asked Jepp about adding a 2nd IFD on the same registration in order to get 2 downloads, they said I needed to order (& pay) a 2nd subscription. Christine gave me the tip on how to make the 2nd usb stick and it works.
Edited by chflyer - 28 Feb 2018 at 4:15pm |
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Vince
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luchetto
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Posted: 28 Feb 2018 at 4:24pm |
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I have a dual subscription, it shows a download for the 540 and one for the 440 and I definitely pay more fore the lot than if yi had just one IFD
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AviSteve
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Posted: 28 Feb 2018 at 4:49pm |
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Interesting, since I actually did double check with my Jeppesen contact before posting that. I'll ask again and refer to your post. In the meantime, what is the experience of others on the forum that have two IFDs?
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Steve Lindsley
Avidyne Engineering |
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Paul
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Posted: 28 Feb 2018 at 5:10pm |
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Steve,
My experiences dealing with Jepp remind me of Douglas Adam's Bistromath. And I've read similar comments by others on several forums. |
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chflyer
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Posted: 28 Feb 2018 at 5:22pm |
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I'm not sure that's a good idea, Steve, since Jepp might then find a way to block our method to get 2 downloads for the price of 1. As mentioned, when I asked Jepp for 2 downloads to cover my IFD540/IFD440 pair, they wanted an additional 30% on top of the single unit subscription. I suggest you talk to Christine. I just shared the info in the forum so other customers know how it works. I would be most upset if Jepp changed things so that it was no longer possible. They gouge us enough as it is.
The full Suite + IFR is not an option for me, as it is would cost me an additional $700 just to get the same Jepp charts on the IFD540 and IFD100 that I already have on 2x ipads with ForeFlight.
Edited by chflyer - 28 Feb 2018 at 5:24pm |
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Vince
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ddgates
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Posted: 28 Feb 2018 at 5:31pm |
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It is frustrating in that this was supposed to have been taken care of along time ago, by agreement between Jeppesen and Avidyne.
Jake had handled this, so I guess now we get to start all over. If we have to be locked into Jepp, Avidyne should broker a fix. |
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David Gates
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luchetto
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Posted: 28 Feb 2018 at 6:16pm |
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Steve,
I must say that I have the bundle also because of the charts and the ability to use those on multiple devices. If it weren't for the charts I would do as Vince suggested. I wonder though if I should go vince's path and have the charts just on foreflight as they are pretty useless on the 540. they only make sense on the IFD100 but then I hate this cropping. You can bet that I always press the wrong LSK as I always forget whether the LSK shows the status or what you will get when pressing.
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AviSteve
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Posted: 01 Mar 2018 at 11:40am |
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I'm standing by my original post regarding this matter. I engaged my Jeppesen contact with the following scenario: Say that I own two 172s. One has only an IFD540. The other has both an IFD440 and and IFD540. I want both charts and nav data with European coverage. I don't need IFD100 mobile support, so I decide to go with the "Jeppesen Services Suite" bundle, not the "+IFR" option. Here are several assertions that I believe to be true. • I need to order two of the exact same bundles, one for each airplane. • For the first airplane, the JDM download count will be set to 1 • For the second airplane, the JDM download count will be set to 2 • The price for both bundles is the same • If I had an EX5000 MFD in the planes, the price still wouldn't change He confirmed that every one of my assertions was correct. If you're getting different information when ordering products from Jeppesen, you can at least be armed with these facts.
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Steve Lindsley
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ddgates
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Posted: 01 Mar 2018 at 1:54pm |
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Well I just called Jepp.
They told me I did not have to pay twice, but I did need 2 instances(downloads),of nav data. Not sure why but it was about $500 less. They said price went down. Will see what happens in JDM. THANKS |
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David Gates
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brou0040
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Posted: 01 Mar 2018 at 11:14pm |
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You can stick with that, but what the forum is trying to say is that many of us get different answers from each other and also different answers on different calls. My subscription renewal was straight forward this year, but I've had to explain (almost argue) their options to them in the past, which is not acceptable.
Edited by brou0040 - 01 Mar 2018 at 11:16pm |
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ddgates
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Posted: 02 Mar 2018 at 9:36am |
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That is exactly the point.
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David Gates
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LarryPetro
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Posted: 05 Mar 2018 at 3:00pm |
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Steve, As I understand you, I was overcharged by Jeppesen. I have two IFD440s and an EX5000 MFD. I want navdata for these three units and the IFD100 (no Jepp charts). Last August I purchased annual subscriptions for US navdata and was charged 2 * $325 = $650 for the two IFDs and $245 for the EX5000. As I now understand you, I should have been charged only $325 + $245, and each update cycle JDM will give me 2 downloads for the IFDs and 1 for the EX5000. Correct? Thanks. -Larry
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Larry Petro - Columbia 350 @ KFME
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Catani
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Posted: 05 Mar 2018 at 5:47pm |
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LarryPetro
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Posted: 05 Mar 2018 at 6:08pm |
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I do not have a Jepp chart subscription; for charts I use ForeFlight. I have three Jepp subscriptions: NavData Americas for the EX5000 and two NavData IFR Full USA for the IFDs. The Jepp representative attempted to sell me on a chart subscription, which I declined. I was not forceful about paying for the two IFD subscriptions because I was inexperienced with what Jepp service had been negotiated by Avidyne; in my previous plane I had a single IFD550.
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Larry Petro - Columbia 350 @ KFME
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HenryM
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Posted: 05 Mar 2018 at 6:15pm |
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I only have one IFD-540, so can't comment on how many subscriptions are needed. However, I have a NavData only subscription. Obstacles are also available as an extra-cost option. It seems there are many variations possible and many different subscription prices. The Jepp web site isn't much help.
I don't find the charts (approach plates) all that useful on the IFD and prefer to view them in Foreflight or other EFB on my iPad. When I was talking to their tech support maybe 6 months ago, the charts cost was on the same order of magnitude as the NavData, on top of the NavData price.
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brou0040
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Posted: 05 Mar 2018 at 7:54pm |
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More miscommunication by Jepp, everybody gets a different answer. Personally I don't know why anybody would pay for charts on the IFD. I have whole US navdata only and have charts/maps on 2 different tablets.
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Bob H
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Posted: 05 Mar 2018 at 10:04pm |
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Bob
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Catani
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Posted: 05 Mar 2018 at 10:10pm |
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Edited by Catani - 05 Mar 2018 at 10:11pm |
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AviSteve
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Posted: 06 Mar 2018 at 9:12am |
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The example I illstrated was for the "Jeppesen Services Suite" bundle. If you ordered your data ala carte, you don't get the benefit of "aircraft pricing" and you'll have to pay for the data that you load into each box. It's entirely possible, given the installed equipment and your needs, that ala carte products would end up being cheaper than a bundle. Remember, though, that the bundle includes obstacle data and terrain (although terrain doesn't change all that often). Charts tend to be the cost driver, so with you having two 440s, thus no need for charts, I can imagine that ala carte may be cheaper. Unfortunately, mobile device support (e.g. IFD100) only comes in a bundle, which includes charts. |
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Steve Lindsley
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brou0040
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Posted: 06 Mar 2018 at 9:28am |
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I was under the impression that as long as you had the navdata at the same level between the IFD540 and IFD100, they'd sync up even without plates. Are you saying that I'd have to pay for charts to be able to use the IFD100 at all?
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LarryPetro
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Posted: 06 Mar 2018 at 9:29am |
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Thanks, Steve. I had not understood the difference between bundles and a la carte. I had indeed ordered a la carte, after taking into account charts, obstacles, and terrain for my situation. -Larry
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Larry Petro - Columbia 350 @ KFME
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AviSteve
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Posted: 06 Mar 2018 at 9:40am |
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It's true that as long as the IFD and the IFD100 have the same nav data, flight plans would be shared regardless of any charts. But, you cannot get mobile device support to load your iPad without a bundle, and a bundle includes charts. Without the same nav data, you can still use the IFD100, but it's utility would be limited since flight plans would not be shared.
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Steve Lindsley
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chflyer
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Posted: 06 Mar 2018 at 10:46am |
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That is a huge negative hit on the IFD100, Steve, and makes it a non-starter for me if I can't even get navdata on it without the bundle.
Jeppesen quoted me >$1000 more for the bundle than I'm paying today for IFD540 navdata plus Jepp charts on ForeFlight (Europe IFR/VFR coverage).... that means just to get charts, obstacles, and terrain on the IFDs. Maybe others can justify that, but for my C172 that puts the IFD100 out of my league.
Edited by chflyer - 06 Mar 2018 at 10:51am |
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Vince
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HenryM
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Posted: 06 Mar 2018 at 12:16pm |
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When I open the IFD100, I get the Jepp login screen, and I can download Navdata and obstacles, which is what I'm subscribed to. I can also download the same information to the Avidyne IFD trainer. It might even apply the data to both once you download it in one of the apps. I'll have to check that the next update cycle.
I haven't tried to use the IFD100 with my IFD540. So far, using the 540 alone has been enough. I tend to use Foreflight or WingX Pro on my iPad. My plane is getting its annual inspection. I will play around with the IFD100 after I get it back.
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Cruiser
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Posted: 06 Mar 2018 at 6:44pm |
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I have the IFD540/440 with a Jeppesen navdata sub only (two units) I don't know what "mobile device support" means but I get the navdata downloaded to the iPad IFD100. I can plan and transfer flight plans from the iPad to the panel etc.
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brou0040
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Posted: 06 Mar 2018 at 11:57pm |
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For the record, below was the position previously. I know I instigated the same conversation last time, but I just want to make sure things haven't changed - in case I ever decide to buy an over-priced single-purpose piece of hardware.
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AviSteve
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Posted: 07 Mar 2018 at 10:09am |
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I've been using the latest documented information from Jeppesen that I have, along with consultation with my Jeppesen contact in order to provide guidance on this thread. Based on some of the upthread responses, either I'm getting incorrect information or there's a difference between the documentation and the implementation. Either way, I need to get to the bottom of it rather than continue to add confusion. So I'll call a time out on this thread until I can do that. Please be patient...
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Steve Lindsley
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compasst
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Posted: 08 Mar 2018 at 1:22am |
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I have charts on my iPad with Foreflight and with fltplan - and I have Jepps on my IFD because the IFD doesn't shut down from overheating during an approach which has happened too many times to count with my iPad. Yes, it is extravagant to have three chart sources, but I when I need a chart, I need it reliably.
I now also have the Jepp charts on Foreflight so I can see the same thing on that as on the IFD. No extra cost with my $1000 package from Jepp for east of the Mississippi coverage - but what a ridiculous price to pay for charts. Back when it was books, my Jepp subscription for the same coverage was nowhere near this much.
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Craig767
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Posted: 09 Mar 2018 at 8:13am |
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Another data point. Have a single IFD 540. Been buying the $480 dollar Nav Data only subscription from Jepp. So far have been able to update both IFD 100 and trainer with this subscription. Coming up for renewal so hope nothing changes.
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94S
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Posted: 09 Mar 2018 at 9:14am |
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+1
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HenryM
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Posted: 20 Mar 2018 at 3:38pm |
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I just called JEpp today about changing my IFD540 subscription. Part of the conversation was about bundles. I currently subscribe to NavData and Obstacles. I asked if they had any bundles for my Avidyne system without charts.
The rep initially offered whole US NavData, Obstacles and Terrain for $565 or so (can't remember the exact number), but then he said he misspoke. That they had this bundle for the IFD-440, but did not apply to the 540. He said it was probably an oversight and maybe they will eventually have such a bundle for the 540 too. I sure hope they do. Nav+Obstacles is currently $480+$185 for me. Is there anything Avidyne can do on their side to get Jepp to offer the same IFD-440 bundle for the 540? They also offered me Jepp charts for the iPad for $199 for the US plus an additional $195 for the rest of the Americas. Even the rep said he thought the iPad provided a larger and better presentation than the panel mount navigators.
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tony
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Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 12:12pm |
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Sure wish someone at Avidyne would listen to all these complaints.......it just keeps getting worse, not better. Maybe Avidyne should distribute the nav data instead of Jepp.
Edited by tony - 21 Mar 2018 at 12:13pm |
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AviSteve
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Posted: 26 Mar 2018 at 9:41am |
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OK, it was more like halftime than a timeout, but I got it all worked out… In original implementations, Jeppesen had their mobile (i.e. iPad) licensing model tied to the availability of charts. The documentation I had was based on that model. Since that time, they have changed their model such that mobile licensing is independent of charts, thus allowing mobile apps like the IFD100 to access subscriptions that contained only nav data. To be sure everything works as we expected, Jeppesen tested various typical subscriptions, including both bundled and ala carte data, with and without charts. They verified that all of the subscriptions were available on the IFD100 app. They also agreed that it was the right thing to do, so those of you that were worried something might be taken away can now eliminate that worry. The bottom line is that the data you've purchased for your avionics will also be available on your iPad for use with the IFD100. |
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Steve Lindsley
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jhbehrens
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Posted: 26 Mar 2018 at 5:07pm |
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I’m sorry Steve but it doesn’t work. I have a navdata, obstacles, IFR and VFR charts subscription for the IFD540 as well as Jeppesen plates on iPad. I cannot load navdata into the IFD100 app as I don’t have iPad plates seats left.
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AviSteve
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Posted: 27 Mar 2018 at 9:48am |
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That's a different problem. You can only download the data on a limited number of devices. If I remember correctly, the bundles support up to four mobile devices. If you have run out of seats, you need to deactivate one of the other devices and then you'll be able to load data on the iPad hosting your IFD100 app. Can you account for all of the devices which you have activated?
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Steve Lindsley
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MysticCobra
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Posted: 27 Mar 2018 at 1:59pm |
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Edited by MysticCobra - 27 Mar 2018 at 2:00pm |
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AviSteve
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Posted: 27 Mar 2018 at 2:43pm |
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All IFD-series products use the same data.
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Steve Lindsley
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HenryM
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Posted: 27 Mar 2018 at 3:02pm |
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The rep I talked to at Jeppesen claimed the data is somehow different. They had a 440 bundle but not a 540. He said it was probably an oversight, and he would run it up the flagpole. However, he couldn't sell me a 540 bundle at the 440 price. I already had a subscription so he could tell I have a 540.
It seems confusion reigns at Jeppesen! I see others do have a 440 subscription to use on their 540. I'll look into it when my renewal comes up in October. For the time being, I switched to an Americas NavData and Obstacles subscription because I am traveling to Mexico soon. They claim to not have any bundles for those databases.
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MysticCobra
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Posted: 28 Mar 2018 at 10:17pm |
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I got a similar response from the woman who was assisting me. Since I had several weeks left on my current subscription, she asked me to hold off on completing the transaction while she "tried to get this cleared up on our end". I'm not holding my breath, but if she's unsuccessful in getting a no-charts bundle approved for the 540, I'm going to try to get her to sell me the 440 bundle.
Edited by MysticCobra - 28 Mar 2018 at 10:17pm |
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AzAv8r
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Posted: 28 Mar 2018 at 11:30pm |
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In circumstances like this (repeated ad-infinitum on this and other forum threads), I'd conclude I'm dealing with someone (or something, an organization named Jeppesen, in this case) that is either incompetent or dishonest.
Does it matter which of those options is the source of the behavior? And we trust them to supply us with data our lives, and those of our loved ones, depend upon??? As I've stated earlier, the moment I have an option other than Jepp, I'll take it. I love my IFD, but it's dependence on the idiots or thieves at Jepp kills the deal. |
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paulr
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Joined: 24 Jan 2014 Status: Offline Points: 558 |
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Posted: 03 Apr 2018 at 12:55pm |
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Not sure this is helpful, but I've had the 540 bundle (for which I paid $1100ish the first two years, then $990 last year). My renewal was due today so yesterday I called and spoke to Barbara. I told her I wanted the 440 bundle; she went off and pushed some buttons for a few minutes and came back to tell me the 440 bundle was $580. Sold. "Call 3 times, get 4 different answers" must be their motto.
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HenryM
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Joined: 13 Oct 2017 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 502 |
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Posted: 03 Apr 2018 at 1:16pm |
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I just talked to Jepp again. I now have an Americas database, and they don't offer any bundles for that. The rep did know about the 440 full US bundle, but claimed it could not be used for the 540. I didn't push it, because I need the Americas bundle a little longer, for a trip I have planned to Mexico.
The rep did say Jepp was talking to Avidyne, and they were wanting to put more bundles together, maybe by Sun'n'Fun or Oshkosh. We'll see if something happens next week. I have a friend with a Garmin 430 NavData subscription (no charts). He was given a free Charts seat to use in ForeFlight. I inquired about that, and that is a Garmin-specific bundle. Hopefully Avidyne can get a similar deal in place. I'd also like to see an Americas NavData, Obstacles and Terrain bundle, not just full US.
Edited by HenryM - 03 Apr 2018 at 1:26pm |
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HenryM
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Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 9:50pm |
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I heard from a different Jepp rep that took up my cause. This time she claims that the reason there is a 440 bundle of NavData/Obstacles/Terrain (no charts) is that the 440 doesn't display charts. She claims most everybody wants charts for the 540 so there is no similar bundle for it. I'll have to see if I can sweet talk a rep to give me the 440 bundle when it comes time to renew. I certainly don't want charts, regardless of what Jepp thinks.
She did not know anything about what might have been announced at Sun n Fun. She said maybe when their sales people come back next week she'll know more.
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luchetto wrote: