Avionics shop refuses to activate ADS-B out
Printed From: Avidyne
Category: Avidyne General
Forum Name: AXP340/322 ADS-B Transponder
Forum Description: Topics on the Avidyne AXP340/322 ADS-B Transponder
URL: http://forums.avidyne.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=545
Printed Date: 09 Nov 2024 at 3:04pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Avionics shop refuses to activate ADS-B out
Posted By: Craig767
Subject: Avionics shop refuses to activate ADS-B out
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2015 at 11:33am
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Installed a IFD-540, AXP-340 and 240. My Avionics installer will not activate the ADS-B out of my AXP-340 because of STC. He feels until the STC for the ADS-B out is approved he cannot legally activate it. He has disabled the GPS position feed from the 540 to the 340. Tried to make the argument that I paid for this feature and a safety of flight issue, but he will not budge. Did any of you that have the ADS-B out have any problems with installer. Any suggestions on how to get the ADS-B functioning.
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Replies:
Posted By: roltman
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2015 at 11:56am
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I was just told the same thing when I go tomorrow for my APX-340 install. I need to produce paperwork to show FAA is okay with this. Steve, do you have anything from the FAA on this topic? |
Posted By: oskrypuch
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2015 at 12:03pm
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They are misunderstanding the nature of that STC. That may take some arm twisting, or some head banging. I am activated, and check out fine at the faa.gov email.
* Orest |
Posted By: Gary T
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2015 at 12:31pm
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My installer activated ADS-B for me, but they were concerned about lack of STC available. My ADS-B checked fine with the FAA compliance as well. ------------- Gary-T |
Posted By: ddgates
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2015 at 1:11pm
Me too. ------------- David Gates |
Gary T wrote:Posted By: AviJake
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2015 at 1:34pm
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The STC is still in progress (probably still a month away) but....
Until proven otherwise, the Avidyne position is that everything can be installed and configured now. You will be recognized as a valid ADS-B participant by the network now. There is no restriction that prevents you from donating your aircraft data to the ADS-B network right now. There is no mandate to be a particpant until midnight on 31 Dec 2019. At that point, if the FAA were to audit you, you would need to produce FAA approved documentation showing compliance.
So we believe the installer concerns are excessively conservative. ------------- Steve Jacobson sjacobson@avidyne.com |
Posted By: MysticCobra
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2015 at 3:15pm
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Remind your installer that there are certainly hundreds, probably thousands, of folks flying around with portable (read: not certified) ADSB-out devices in their aircraft, and the FAA knows all about them (since they're actively broadcasting their identity to ATC). I'm talking about things like the http://adsb.skyguardtwx.com/" rel="nofollow - SkyguardTWX , http://www.skyvisionxtreme.com/" rel="nofollow - SkyvisionXtreme , etc. I have a SkyguardTWX with (uncertified) ADSB-out, and have participated in the FAA's offer to "check the compliance of your ADSB-out solution". Here's the first reply I got from them:
I don't know if current AXP340s are broadcasting SIL=0 to reflect their uncertified status, but even if they aren't, that's not breaking any law or violating any reg that's going to get anyone in trouble.
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Posted By: Craig767
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2015 at 3:59pm
| Thanks everyone. Will share this with my installer to try and gently persuade him to change his mind. |
Posted By: tony
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2015 at 4:19pm
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Well I would try this argument....The TSO'd transponder was installed on a 337 first. Then after that installation, the IFD540 was installed with an STC per the FAA approved installation manual. In that manual on page 177, it clearly shows an RS 232 wire going to your transponder. If he doesn't follow the installation manual then he is violating the STC. Worth a try. If he wont hook it up, now will he do it later at no charge? Sometimes hanger fairies connect wires......
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Posted By: Craig767
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2015 at 4:24pm
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Hi Tony, From what I understand the wire is connected and functions, but he has disabled the feature in the 540 maintenance menu. Maybe finding out how to activate it from maintenance menu if cannot persuade him to activate.
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Posted By: oskrypuch
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2015 at 5:43pm
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He probably disabled it by disabling the RS232 input in the AXP340 on the maintenance pages. That is a pretty easy fix. We can probably walk you through it, but be aware that your wings may fall off. I don't believe that there is a setting to disable the output in the 540, as long as the wire is connected, the data will go. You have very easy access to all the maintenance setup screens in the 540, they are in the group of pages you see when doing a database update.
* Orest |
Posted By: Craig767
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2015 at 6:32pm
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Thanks, will take you up on the offer if he does not listen to reason.
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Posted By: Craig767
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2015 at 1:47pm
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Well none of the aruguments worked. He is afraid that during a FAA audit they will question the work order for something that has no STC or field approval. Whether founded or not, he is afraid of a $10,000 fine. Of course you may ask why have a work order, but not my call I guess. So my options are wait a month of so to use a feature I want and paid for or try to get the ADS-B out activated myself. Right now the 340 shows no GPS position from the 540. Installer says 540 connected and it works so either turned off in some menu of 540 or 340. So if anyone has a ideas I would greatly appreciate them. Also would advise those getting this install to verify with installer they will activate ADS-B out.
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Posted By: oskrypuch
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2015 at 5:02pm
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ONLY IF YOU ARE HANDY WITH ELECTRONICS AND SUCH ... Going ahead, you could mess up your transponder settings and have to visit the same shop to fix it! Further, if it doesn't pass validation (faa.gov email check), then you will also have to return to the shop.
The input settings required in the AXP340 for the GPS location are TRIG ADS-B protocol and 9600 baud, these are likely set to something else to disable it. Grab the AXP340 INSTALL manual, turn to page 20, you will see it listed there. Page 27 tells you how to get into the maintenance mode. You also need to set what ADS-B IN (UAT or 1090ES) you are utilizing, I expect that is largely the point of this exercise for you, that you want to see traffic on a portable device. * Orest |
Posted By: MysticCobra
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2015 at 5:32pm
As someone else mentioned, if you're feeling philanthropic, you can set your ADS-B IN to "both" so that traffic data is broadcast on both freqs. That would benefit nearby aircraft who have either UAT or 1090ES ADSB-in, but no OUT to trigger the broadcast. (In practice, I'm not sure how many planes might have 1090ES IN capability without also having the OUT. For UAT, we know that lots of GA folks are in that boat.)
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Posted By: Craig767
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2015 at 6:03pm
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Thanks Aircraft in avionics shop now, will try this when it returns. From what they tell me entire RS232 disabled as 340 air/grd logic does not work either.
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Posted By: Craig767
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2015 at 6:05pm
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Will set both anyway as have dual ADS-B in.
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Posted By: oskrypuch
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2015 at 7:17pm
There is a separate "squat switch" line that should be connected to the AXP340 from the 540. According to a direction in a SIL, due to some logic issues in this when compounded with a GPS failure, the SIL directs to disable this until 10.0.3 is out. That may be what they are referring to. Often transponders can pick up the ground/air state by monitoring the ground speed on the regular RS232 line (that is separate from the squat switch line), but I don't believe that the AXP340 actually does that. * Orest |
Posted By: tony
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2015 at 8:38pm
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If the installer didn't follow the installation manual, I would hope you can document that and report it to avidyne. Hopefully Avidyne will take the appropriate action... It definitely is not in avidyne's best interest to have renegade authorize installers out there. Right Steve? If you can't tell, this just pisses me off. This is unnecessary regulatory bs. |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2015 at 8:38pm
I don't think it works that way. If your transponder says you can receive on both frequencies then the ground radar can send you the data on whichever frequency it prefers. And it will know that you can pick up aircraft on both frequencies directly so it doesn't need to repeat anything. Most of the time the only things it will need to send would be the locations of aircraft with Mode C transponders. If you want to maximize the number of people who might be helped by the ground broadcasts aimed at you then you'd pick UAT only. Portable ADS-B in devices receive UAT because that's where the weather is. Some receive on both frequencies but I don't think there are any which receive only on 1090. |
Posted By: oskrypuch
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2015 at 8:47pm
Interesting perspective, but are you certain of the above, or just speculating? It would seem more logical that if set to both, the system should assume an ADS-B IN reply is required on both. If not, then there would be no way to activate reception on both a portable UAT and panel mount 1090ES (like the upcoming TAS60xA units) * Orest |
Posted By: AviJake
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2015 at 8:52pm
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It's baloney. This particular installer sounds excessively conservative and unwilling to listen to logic. I don't like this but realistically, I'd say either get a new installer or wait another month-ish until this is OBE.
------------- Steve Jacobson sjacobson@avidyne.com |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2015 at 11:13am
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Orest, You could be right. But sending on both frequencies would conflict with one of their goals (as told to me by someone involved in the design) which is to minimize 1090 activity. 1090 occasionally gets overloaded in some places. I can't find a sufficient description anywhere. Maybe Steve or someone at Avidyne knows the answer. If not I'll try to find out elsewhere. It would be interesting to run a test but it requires an airplane with a UAT transmitter and one with a 1090 only receiver and I don't have either of those. |
Posted By: Royski
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2015 at 12:34pm
FWIW, my installer said someone at Avidyne told him that the ADS-B should not be enabled until the STC is released. Hopefully this will be moot point very soon. |
Posted By: topogen
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2015 at 4:39pm
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Interesting points... My installation (just done last week) has a fully functional AD-B and I'm off to the races. Florida shops understand the reality of on the cusp STC and act accordingly.... I guess risk aversion is alive and well in some avionics shops.... sheesh... wake up installers! ------------- Not all that counts can be counted |
Posted By: Craig767
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2015 at 7:57pm
| I was under the impression that if you had a dual ADSB in you would want both active for the times you are not in contact with a ADSB tower you could receive either a aircraft with UAT or 1090 out directly. |
Posted By: MysticCobra
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2015 at 10:32pm
Sure. I don't think anyone has suggested otherwise.
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Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2015 at 11:38am
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So far people haven't been naming the avionics shops that won't enable ADS-B out. Perhaps we should have a new topic where we describe our experiences (good or bad) with installers? Before I create such a topic I want to hear from Steve. Is this an appropriate topic for Avidyne's forum? It is likely that people will say negative things about some shops and I don't want to start something that will harm Avidyne's relationship with their dealers. |
Posted By: Gring
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2015 at 12:28pm
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Here is my perspective on it FWIW. Since the STC will be out shortly 30 days? it probably is a moot point at this time. To be fair to the installers, yes, as unreasonable as it is, the ADS-B out requires an STC, and if you subscribe to the FAA notices, you'll see fines levied against companies for using unapproved parts or installing in an unapproved manner, so their fears are not unfounded. Do I think anything will become of using ADS-B without an STC now? - No. I would simply ask your installer to wire the boxes as the installation manual prescribes to ensure the only changes are software setup. I would ask which output was used and then...That way, you assume the liability and responsibility if you choose to do something different. Getting frustrated at the Avidyne dealer doesn't really accomplish anything and the issue should be solved shortly. I hope this helps to put it into perspective.
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Posted By: oskrypuch
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2015 at 1:19pm
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Personally, I would concur with Gring's post. * Orest |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2015 at 1:35pm
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Actually my comment was more general. I have picked my installer and they will start next Monday(!) But I would have found any PIREPs useful in making my decision. So I wonder, as more get installed, if there should be a topic for it. |
Posted By: oskrypuch
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2015 at 1:52pm
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Well, there are plenty of spaces to discuss/diss bad installers. I doubt that a manufacturer would want to see threads like that on their own forums, but that is up to them of course. * Orest |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2015 at 3:59pm
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Orest, I agree. But other companies, at least other avionics companies, don't run a forum like this at all. My attempts with Google to find avionics PIREPs didn't turn up much. Where do you find them? |
Posted By: Gring
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2015 at 4:03pm
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You may try the forums for more expensive airplanes like Beechtalk, COPA for Cirrus, and MOPA for Malibu/Meridian/Matrix owners. These forums are generally full of people willing to spend money (especially your money) and they have knowledge of good shops and poor shops. I can tell you from my experience, NexAir and VIP in the NorthEast have been very good. Lots of good pireps from Gulf Coast, JA Air Center, Sarasota Avionics. There are lots of horror stories out there about shops not doing the job right and leaving the owner to have it sorted out elsewhere. Do your homework so you don't get burned.
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Posted By: ddgates
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2015 at 4:32pm
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Just like a lot of things... word of mouth is a good thing. In my case I used a well known shop but one who had not done the Avidyne 540/340/ or PMA450. They were willing to charge me standard shop rates and not expect me to fund their entire learning curve. I wouldn't go to a small shop, no matter how convenient geographically, that hadn't done these type of installs, and pay for their learning curve or their mistakes. That said, there are some lack of clarity points for an installer in the 540 IM.
------------- David Gates |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2015 at 5:30pm
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We're straying from the topic quite a bit, but Nexair is doing the install for me. I also got a quote from VIP but Nexair's proposal was a bit closer to what I had in mind and they were more prompt in getting back to me. In a couple weeks I'll know if it was a good decision and whether or not ADS-B out is enabled. |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2015 at 7:26pm
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My friend who really knows ADS-B says that currently they are transmitting on both frequencies if an airplane says it has receive capability for both, but that it could change. Meanwhile they are predicting 2-3 feet of snow for us but our plane is in the nice avionics shop hangar having an IFD 540 installed instead of being tied down outside on a pad. |
Posted By: hamilton
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2015 at 2:31pm
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Back to the top, the shop may have disabled it in the 540 as they mention by not setting the channel output of the IFD to the AXP as ADSB Avi. I think the best option is to wait. Here in New Zealand we cannot install a mode S capable transponder without an STC (we do directly accept FAA STCs thank god) so we are all waiting with baited breath for that magic piece of paper!
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Posted By: ddgates
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2015 at 3:20pm
But Avidyne already has the mode S STC. They don't have the STC for the ADS-B using the 540 as position source. ------------- David Gates |
Posted By: hamilton
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2015 at 3:48pm
| When installed along with a Freeflight 1201 yes, not as a standalone installation or any other form of position source. |
Posted By: ddgates
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2015 at 4:08pm
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Respectfully, I don't think that's right. Avidyne has the pure mode S STC (for the US FAA) else it couldn't be in my panel, and it is there They don't have the paper saying the 540/340 combination together satisfies the 2020 ADS-B requirement. That's how I understand it. Jake? ------------- David Gates |
Posted By: brou0040
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2015 at 5:21pm
That is not what Avidyne's own tech support believes. While on the phone with tech support after another GPS failure (I'm at 100 failure rate with the 540, the unit has not yet functioned for an entire flight without failing) , I was told that I needed to turn off sending the ADS-B signal to the AXP340 since it is not yet STC'd.
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Posted By: chflyer
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2015 at 1:19pm
Do you have the STC number of the Avidyne pure S-mode STC? I haven't been able to find it. Is it only for one a/c or does it have an AML? Another thread has a discussion about the pure S-mode installation being a minor alteration (or not) and Steve hasn't mentioned anything there about an STC for pure S-mode. I'm not sure how the ADS-B STC will address this question since, as you mention, it will just cover the use of an IFD540 as GPS source and the 2020 ADS-B requirement, and not the AXP340 installation as a straight S-mode transponder. ------------- Vince |
Posted By: AviSimpson
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2015 at 9:26am
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Exciting news from the FAA this morning... The AXP340 received it's AML STC for ADS-B Out w/ R9, IFD540 and GNS430Ws/530Ws! ------------- Simpson Bennett Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
Posted By: TogaDriver
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2015 at 9:37am
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Great news to greet my morning coffee! Thanks! |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2015 at 10:48am
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That's great news! Since our plane has a field approval for the IFD 540 / AXP 340 combo does this affect it? |
Posted By: AviSimpson
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2015 at 10:55am
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This STC gives you something to point to for the ADS-B Out Mandate Compliance in 2020. ------------- Simpson Bennett Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
Posted By: chflyer
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2015 at 7:06am
David, Could you indicate the STC reference? (should be on the 337 that was filed) ------------- Vince |
Posted By: ddgates
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2015 at 7:15am
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Vince: I will look (will be a few days -boarding the aluminum tube at the moment). Maybe AviSimpson can track it down in the interim.
------------- David Gates |
Posted By: chflyer
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2015 at 7:40am
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I've just found the new AXP340 STC (incl ADS-B) on the FAA web site, and it also covers the basic A/C/S transponder function, so don't worry about looking for the previous one Dave. BTW, the new AXP340 ADS-B Out STC is SA00352BO. It includes an AML. I don't see this up on the Avidyne web site yet (at least not under AXP340 download section). It would be good to also have the ICA (AVAXP-006) and AFMS (600-00309-000) posted to the download section since these are part of the STC approval. Simpson? ------------- Vince |
Posted By: AviSimpson
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2015 at 9:06am
Agreed, we are going to post all the documents this week. Once they're up, I'll send the link over. -Simpson
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Posted By: MikeK
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2015 at 6:02pm
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Great news! Congratulations. Now, if I can just get the rest of my avionics working, I can finally start flying this stuff.
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Posted By: chflyer
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2015 at 4:27am
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Hi Simpson, Any updates yet on getting the AXP340 docs (STC, AML, AFMS, ICA) posted? We sort of expected this by the end of last week.... ------------- Vince |
Posted By: Gary T
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2015 at 1:22pm
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Deleted ------------- Gary-T |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2015 at 9:29pm
I asked the Eastern Region, NextGen Branch of the FAA about this and they gave me some answers. Retransmitting from UAT to 1090 or vice-versa is ADS-R. Transmitting information from radar for a plane which does not have ADS-B out is TIS-B. Here's the important info:
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Posted By: oskrypuch
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2015 at 9:42pm
If that is indeed the way it will roll out, it largely eliminates the traffic "carrot" altogether for most installations. * Orest |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2015 at 10:25pm
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Most portable ADS-B In receivers sold now are dual-band. If the installed ADS-B In receiver is single-band then the ADS-B Out device can announce that it has ADS-B in on only that band. Both receivers will then see all traffic. If someone has a portable single band receiver they might want to sell it and buy a dual band unit. Compared to the cost of the certificated UAT or TAWS receiver the portable isn't expensive. |
Posted By: AviSimpson
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2015 at 4:02pm
Sorry about that, been a busy few weeks with back to back to back shows. The documents are up: http://www.avidyne.com/support/downloads/xpdr.asp ------------- Simpson Bennett Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
Posted By: chflyer
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2015 at 4:14pm
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Thanks Simpson. Isn't there also an AFM Supp and ICA? ------------- Vince |
Posted By: AviSimpson
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2015 at 4:27pm
There is and I thought they were up as well. I will get them up too. ------------- Simpson Bennett Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
Posted By: Kentucky Captain
Date Posted: 06 May 2015 at 6:32pm
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My avionics shop was going to have no problems activating the ADS-B portions but the day before they finished the install, the STC came through. |